The MiG-29s and Su-25s that EU could donate to Ukraine and Why the Russians have not achieved ‘Total Aeri… – The Aviation Geek Club

The EU – repeat for emphasis: the EU – is intending to donate old MiG-29s and Su-25s of different NATO-air forces to Ukraine. Sounds logical: Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria etc. are still flying MiG-29s, for example. Ukrainians can fly such jets, even if their communications and IFF have been significantly modified over the time. Still, I consider this for useless political decision in style of, ‘we must do something’. It’s going to make Ukrainians happy, no doubt, but, jets in question are 40 years old and ‘bent’ from all the training over the years, and some of installed equipment (especially IFF and radios) is not going to be ‘compatible’ with the Ukrainians. On top of that, it’s near pointless, because of the massive Russian superiority, and hiding fighter jets is anything else than easy. Thus, I’m curious to see if and how anything of this kind might be realised.
‘Hiding fighter jets’ brings me to a question several have asked yesterday. That is: how does the Ukrainian Air Force operate? In the night prior to the Russian aggression, it dispersed its aircraft and helicopters on airfields in the west and south of the country. A few are at ‘official’ air bases, but the mass is at minor airfields. Even then, Ukrainians are keeping them 1000-4000 metres away from any runways, well-concealed. Thus, except for destroying many of old, ‘stored’ – actually: abandoned – jets left behind, the Russians hit less than a handful of Ukrainian combat aircraft and helicopters on the ground.
Hence Moscow has not achieved ‘total aerial superiority’ in the skies as they have instead claimed.
Actually for the Russians, ‘finding these jets is anything else than easy. Because Ukrainian S-300s are still operational, the Russians can’t freely move their handful of precious Tu-214R reconnaissance jets equipped with SLARs. They can’t bring them closely enough to find Ukrainian jets on the ground. Thus, they have to wait for Ukrainians to fly.
Now, MiG-29 and Su-25 were built for operations from ‘primitive’ facilities, can use even grass runways. That far, no problem. Where there is a massive problem is the command and control of such a ‘force’: what jet is where, which one to scramble in what case, and, hand on heart, one can’t just scramble a jet and send it ‘to attack whatever enemy it finds’, nowadays. Jets are moving very fast. What’s ‘here’ one moment, is ‘there’ the next, and thus easier to completely miss than to find. Moreover, the Russians are ‘hiding’ their aircraft with massive volumes of electronic warfare, and thus any Ukrainian jets that are airborne but do not have very specific targeting information, only serve as targets for the enemy. Especially, MiG-29 needs good support from the ground control to operate effectively: it needs ground control to tell the pilot where is the target and what it is doing. Unsurprisingly, Ukrainians have already lost a number of MiG-29s – to Russian interceptors, to surface-to-air missiles and other Russian weapons.
By now, Ukrainian Air Force can operate only in the west and the south, where the Russian air defence- and electronic warfare assets have not yet been deployed, are too far away, or are yet in the process of development. This is why we only see videos of Ukrainian Su-25s attacking advancing columns of the Russian Army, and then, primarily, in the south, where the battlefield is ‘still fluid’. When doing so, they are facing a full range of air defence means, from AKM assault rifles to S-400s (ASCC/NATO-codename ‘SS-21 Growler’). Unsurprisingly, they’re flying very low, to limit detection and exposure – and still suffering heavy losses: at least 3 Ukrainian Su-25s were shot down yesterday and this morning. Apparently, all their pilots were killed.
Why such losses? Fast- and low-flying jets operating in the skies ‘saturated’ by enemy aircraft and air defences are ‘perfect targets’ for own air defences, too – as there is no way for ground troops well-supplied with MANPADs to say which is Russian and which is Ukrainian, while Russian aircraft are better-protected by countermeasures. Unsurprisingly, at least one of three Ukrainian Su-25s lost yesterday and today was shot down by own troops.
Generally, when you see a video shown a jet over Ukraine these days, you can gauge the following: if flying low, it’s Ukrainian. Only Russian Su-25s are flying low: all others are operating at medium and high altitudes.
Check out Helion & Company website for books featuring interesting stories written by The Aviation Geek Club contributor Tom Cooper.
Photo credit: Chavdar Garchev (Чавдар Гърчев), Chris Lofting and Łukasz Golowanow via Wikipedia
You must be logged in to post a comment.
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
Many incorrect points in this analysis. When you say, “40 years old jets”, well that is valid for most of the Tornadoes, F-15s, several European F-16As… I see what you mean: “not upgraded”, still it’s a silly comment.
When you mention “On top of that, it’s near pointless, because of the massive Russian superiority”, again you are incorrect. Think about North Vietnam with the only difference of having a (very slowly) moving frontline… and this point is again valid against your “one can’t just scramble a jet and send it ‘to attack whatever enemy it finds’, nowadays.” Again wrong. Think of the zip and run tactics of MiG-21s vs F-4s and F-105 in air defense over North Vietnam. Russian air defense and interceptors are proving to be not that coordinated and deadly as you imply. Hunting for low flying helicopters is also an option. Not to mention the air to ground with unguided rockets. Overall, the Ukrainians do have an advantage. A single MiG-29 finds itself in a target rich environment where he does not really need to understand “who is whom”, since most probably everyone in the air is an enemy… (Vietnam air to air again and all the issues with using the AIM-7?). Consider that while the R-73 is a decent missile, the R-27 is roughly comparable to an 1970ies AIM-7. Of course, I think the Ukrainians using mostly of R-73s for air-to-air while using air to ground unguided rockets for ground attack. Both are perfectly designed to do what you deny possible “take off, find a target and attack”. You should come out of a “guided munition” mentality in this war.
When you say everything that flies low is Ukrainian again you make a mistake together with “Only Russian Su-25s are flying low:” again it’s a mistake. I just saw some videos today about a very low flying Russian Su-34.
Didn’t you see that very low flying Ukrainian MiG-29s making a rocket attack? Even there was a Ukrainian Su-27 which was downed possibly by friendly fire, which was flying just above the apartment blocks in Kyiv?
Overall in your article you completely miss the fact that both sides are missing a decent (NATO standard) command and control and it’s mostly a single unit kind of war. By the way, that’s also valid on the ground.
Did you see the Ukrainian TB2 hitting those Buk air defense systems? Did you see a Russian Mi-24P strafing a Ukrainian Buk?
Overall, the use of Russian made jets without any battle plan has been proved already several times in the past. The factions in Libya since 2011, the Syrian air force, all the African wars, the newly delivered Su-25s in Iraq during the IS takeover in 2014.
You should come out of a NATO mentality. This is turning out being a poor men’s war… both sides.
Surely “Take off and do something” is not the best way to preserve your force or to achieve success, but it is exactly how these jets are operating. In this scenario, delivering more MiG-29s or Su-25s sounds useful.
oh and don’t forget this: a Bayractar TB2 flies at 2000-3000 meters over the ground, at a slow speed, on a very predictable flight path, right in the range of all the different ground to air vehicles… a perfect target one would say. And still all those Russian air defenses have serious issues even in just engaging it. Overall the Russians are showing very limited situational awareness, even their ground forces. So low flying Ukrainian jets make perfect sense.
Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox.

What are you waiting for? Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club!

This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website.
View the Cookie Policy
The Twitter Tweet button and social widgets are services allowing interaction with the Twitter social network provided by Twitter, Inc.
Place of processing: United States –  Privacy Policy.
YouTube is a video content visualisation service provided by Google Ireland Limited. This service allows this Website to incorporate content of this kind on its pages.
This widget is set up in a way that ensures that YouTube will not store information and cookies about Users on this Website unless they play the video.
Personal Data collected: Tracker; Universally unique identifier (UUID); Usage Data.
Place of processing: Ireland –  Privacy Policy.
Gravatar is an image visualisation service provided by Automattic Inc. that allows this Website to incorporate content of this kind on its pages.
Place of processing: United States –  Privacy Policy.
Google AdSense is an advertising service provided by Google Ireland Limited. which uses the “Doubleclick” cookie to track the use of this application and the behaviour of the User in relation to the advertisements, products and services offered.
You can disable all the Doubleclick cookies by clicking on: Google Ad Settings.
In order to understand Google’s use of data, please read Google’s partner policy.
Personal information collected: Tracker; Usage Data.
Place of processing: Ireland –  Privacy Policy – Opt Out.
The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social network and are provided by Facebook Ireland Ltd.
Personal data that are processed: Tracker; Usage Data.
Place of processing: Ireland –  Privacy Policy
Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages.
Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker
Place of processing: Ireland –  Privacy Policy.
Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (“Google”). Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google.
Google may use your Personal Data to contextualize and personalize ads in its advertising network.
This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google’s servers and shortened within the United States.
Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data.
Place of processing: Ireland –  Privacy Policy – Opt Out.


A propos de l'auteur

Avatar of Backlink pro
Backlink pro

Ajouter un commentaire

Backlink pro

Avatar of Backlink pro

Prenez contact avec nous

Les backlinks sont des liens d'autres sites web vers votre site web. Ils aident les internautes à trouver votre site et leur permettent de trouver plus facilement les informations qu'ils recherchent. Plus votre site Web possède de liens retour, plus les internautes sont susceptibles de le visiter.


Map for 12 rue lakanal 75015 PARIS FRANCE